Ray Higdon: The Dynamics Of Building Culture

THSH (formerly The Shift) 1 | Building Culture

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Allowing people to feel good, regardless of their level of desire and level of result, will keep them around the campfire longer. As it happens, this is Ray Higdon’s definition of culture. Ray is the CEO of The Higdon Group where he helps performance based-teams identify and overcome their roadblocks. He is also a bestselling author, keynote speaker, and coach. Today, he joins Patrick Shaw to talk about the dynamics of building a culture. For anyone serious about building a business, this is a must-listen episode as they tackle leadership, accountability, moving to the next level, how to get people more engaged in the work, and more.

Ray Higdon: The Dynamics Of Building Culture

Welcome, everybody. I’m super excited. We have a gentleman who needs no introduction, Mr. Ray Higdon. Ray, it was fantastic being with you. You had a big event in Orlando. You’re an icon, a household name in the network marketing industry. You’ve built something tremendous, and I’m excited to have you on the show, my friend.

Thanks for having me.

Ray, there are so many different places we can go, but you’re seeing a lot of happening in the industry. You’ve got a bird’s eye view like very few people do. I want to talk a little bit about that. Maybe possibly, for those people who don’t know the name and the backstory, could you talk about your evolution in the network marketing industry from getting started in those early days and how you evolved to be one of the biggest trainers in the industry globally?

I had worked my way up in the corporate world to a pretty high-paying salary. I realized that there was never going to be freedom in that arena, so I was looking, “Where am I going to go from here?” I had worked my way up, and now above me was management. He was totally miserable. His boss was miserable. Her boss was miserable, and I was like, “That’s where I’m at.” I was in my early 30s, and I had some buddies that were in real estate here in the State of Florida. That was in 2004 or 2005. They were killing it.

I’m like, “Those knuckleheads can do it. They weren’t that bright and were making more money than I was.” I was working on this corporate job the whole time. I wanted that freedom. I’m like, “I’m going to go out on my own.” No one agreed with that decision. Everyone thought I was crazy losing my benefits and whatever. I jumped into real estate, and it was awesome for several years. When the market changed, I didn’t know how to operate. I didn’t know what to do. I hadn’t invested in myself. I hadn’t surrounded myself with mentors and coaches. Here I was, broke. I’d lost everything. I went through foreclosure.

Ray Higdon| Building Culture

I went through a divorce. I went through a lot of depression and didn’t know what I was going to do. No one was hiring. My credit shut. A friend of mine, who I’ve never asked, I don’t think he knew how bad off I was, but he invited me to a whole meeting in which I had dabbled in network marketing, and I had bad experiences with two controlling of uplines. I didn’t want to do it, but I didn’t know what else I was going to do.

At this time, you’re in your 30s, or how old are you?

That was in 2009, whatever that equates to. I’m like, “I’m going to figure this thing out.” I took 1 of my 2 credit cards left that hadn’t stopped allowing me to use them. I swiped that thing and was like, “I’m going to figure this damn thing out.” Probably the biggest thing that I did was create a psychological trigger. Anytime I thought about how bad my life was, how it used to be great and used to make a bunch of money, I had to prospect somebody. Sometimes I was going through my phone and ding where it landed, the dry cleaner, the restaurant, or the realtor. I didn’t care.

Eventually, I read a book called Go for No! I decided I was going to go for twenty noes a day. I hated prospecting, so I also started doing a video per day. For those two main activities, I got to $10,000 in my fifth month, $40,000 a month in my seventh month, and $50,000 a month in my tenth month, and I went on to become the number one earner of that company. I made millions with them and changed my life. It was absolutely amazing.

Fast forward a couple of years, and I was the number 1 earner of that company for 3 years. Some things happened with ownership, and they wanted to make a change. They merged into another company. I ran with that company for three years, and I didn’t intend on doing it, but I had built a coaching and training company at the same time because, in 2009, my wife and I were doing it on social media before most people were. They thought that didn’t duplicate, “You couldn’t do this business on social media.”

When people saw that work, they wanted to hire me and have me speak at their event or coach their team or whatever. In 2016, I was putting half here. I’m not doing 100% either the way that I would like to. I made a choice to retire from actively building a team and focus on coaching and training. That’s what I’ve been doing ever since. I do a lot of keynote events. We run our own event, as you mentioned. We love what we do, but we help performance-based teams discover and overcome their roadblocks so that they dominate, so they absolutely crush it. That’s what I’m known for.

You’ve had such a massive impact. I’m not sure whether there are many people that had a bigger impact on more leaders than you have. From the beginning, when I met you, you talked a lot about the importance of the activity. People measure that activity and look at what they’re doing. You mentioned that even as you were talking, it is doing the work and that commitment. You made that trigger. Let’s do a deeper dive into that. Why is it, and what can we do about it to get people to engage more in the work?

For that question, one of the big things that need to be understood is culture and understanding what that means. I learned culture from a gentleman named Larry Thompson. He joined network marketing at the same hotel the same night as Jim Rohn years ago. He teaches a concept called 80/15/5. Eighty percent of your organization has a desired level, not a result level, a desired level to make $0 to $500 a month.

15% have $2,000 to $3,000 a month, and 5% have a desire level of $25,000 or more a month. The problem is that every leader on stage is a five percenter with an extremely high level of desire, which that’s not the problem, but they think that their job is to make everyone else a five percenter. When you create an environment of, “You should have bigger goals. You should step it up, buddy,” in an industry that was built for the average Joe, for the average person to be able to start a business.

There are so many people in network marketing that if it weren’t network marketing, they would not be an entrepreneur. They would not have a restaurant. They would not have a franchise. They wouldn’t because they don’t have that level of belief, but they saw it for a few hundred bucks. They can join the thing and make some money if they want.

Culture is allowing, that’s the keyword, allowing people to feel good regardless of their level of desire or level of result. I say that because if you are the type of leader when people come in, it’s like, “We got to get them a check right away. Let’s go. Let’s make it happen.” Network marketing is the easiest relationship to quit. You’ll have people that can’t figure out how to program the microwave, but they’ll find that cancel auto-ship button.

Ray Higdon | Building Culture

They will navigate. They’ll send the three facts and notarize the signature and eyeball scan. They’ll jump through 52 hoops to cancel that auto-ship because they don’t want to feel like a disappointment. They certainly don’t want to pay for that. Most people got enough of feeling like a disappointment in their parents, so they don’t want to get it from you.

Allowing people to feel good, regardless of their level of desire and result, will keep them around the campfire longer. By the way, they’re probably ordering products, so you’re probably getting compensated for them. The longer you keep them around the campfire, the more likely they’ll catch a spark. You want to think less like the hard-charging sales leader and think more like the gym owner.

You’re always going to have a large percentage of your team lack that high level of desire. How can you allow them to feel okay so they stick around a little bit longer and possibly catch a spark?

I go to the gym right across the street. If I go to the gym and work out for three minutes and take a picture of the dumbbells, I don’t lift and post it on Instagram, and the gym owner doesn’t make fun of me. The gym owner says, “Way to go, buddy,” regardless of my level of desire because he likes my membership. Culture is one of the big ones.

If the goal is to move that 80 to that 15, the realization is probably not going to the 5 if they didn’t come in as a 5.

Desire levels change. A lot of people don’t get that distinction. They think that it’s always the result level. It’s not the result. It’s desire level. There are people making $1 million a year that are 80 percenters. What does that mean? It’s based on attempts at personal production. There are people that reach their goal of $50,000 a month, $100,00 a month or $1 million a month and no longer attempt personal production. That’s not a five percenter.

Five percenter is foam at the mouth. “I’m going to prospect until I’m blue in the face. I’m going to go get this back.” They’re going to make it. You could have someone not making any money, but they’re trying their heart out. They’re studying. They’re showing up to everything. They’re prospecting everywhere that they go. You could classify them as a five percenter because of their massive attempts at personal production and their desire to make more money.

It’s a math thing. You’re always going to have a large percentage of your team, regardless of if you walk on water or whatever, that doesn’t have a high level of desire. How can you allow them to feel, so they stick around a little bit longer and possibly upgrade and catch a spark? I’ve seen this over and over. I had people in my team that didn’t do anything for 6, 7 or 8 months, and then all of a sudden, they got laid off.

All of a sudden, COVID hit, something happened, and they needed to step it up or get sick and tired of being sick and tired. Because I allowed them to stick around, they had a place to plug in. If you’re hard-charging and in their face, “You got to be working and working,” or they’re dead to you, they’re going to leave, and you’ll never have that opportunity.

I shouldn’t say failure, but is that more of a struggle for organizations, companies, enterprises, or top leaders to be aware, accept that fact, and acknowledge it? It would change their behavior if they understood what you described. Is that more of a story for the leadership or the companies or a little bit of both?

I would say both, but more of the leaders in the companies. I’ll give you an example. Here’s a very simple example. We did a leadership book, and in the leadership book, on pages 91 and 92, I tell you the most effective way to run a contest. I’ve taught this to 100 or 200, 6, and 7-figure earners. When they run it this way, they produce more volume than they’ve ever produced in their career. I’ve had so many leaders tell me this that have been in 5 years or 10 years.

The title of the book is what, Ray? Can they get it on Amazon?

It’s a funky title, Freakishly Effective Leadership for Network Marketers. On pages 91 and 92, it details it. Here’s what happens, and this is all about psychology and understanding human nature when the company or the leader pushes out a contest and says, “First place, Cadillac. Second place, steak knives. Third place, you’re fired.” When someone puts out a contest, and it’s only 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 95% of the team says, “Why bother? I can’t beat Patrick. I can’t beat Tony. He’s going to win this thing. There’s no way.”

You’ll take someone who might have been interested in doing some work. They’ll actually not. They’ll do less work because of your contests. It’s thinking like them. It’s like, “How do I think like this?” If you want to drastically increase your results in a contest, have a pre-contest, and the pre-contest qualifies them. They have to get 1 sale in 7 days. “Get 1 sale in 7 days, and you’ll be entered into the contest next week. You’ll be able to participate in the contest.” What will happen is there will be a whole lot more people that believe they can get one sale in a week.

All of a sudden, you’ll have a massive spike and volume of people coming out of the woodwork that you thought passed away years ago. All of a sudden, they get a sale and are excited about it because they believe they can do that. What they do in the contest is you have a couple of different levels. Have 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Challenge the rock stars, the five percenters, but then also have, “If you get two, you get on this free training.”

You’ll take someone who wouldn’t have done anything, and you’ll take thousands of people that wouldn’t have done anything, and all of a sudden, they get three sales. It’s thinking more about moving the numbers than upping the five percenters. It’s nice to get a 10% increase in 5% of the people. It’s a whole lot nicer to get a little bit of an increase across 10,000 people. Very different result.

Still, where the volume of the income and the freedom comes from in the organization is the middle of the pack.

More people believe they can do that than be that 1st, 2nd, 3rd person.

Within our platform, when we create contests and leaderboards, there are things called leaderboards and recognition boards. We cap the recognition board at ten exposures or some activity that everybody can manage. The number one guy in the company is capped so that he can do more activity obviously on a different contest, but he’s right beside that person who had to fight to get the ten.

Also, another good book, The 4 Disciplines of Execution, outlines, “How do you move the middle?” I love that. I’ve never heard it described that way. Did you learn that from Larry Thompson or over the years, you started formulating that 80/15/5? It’s an incredible concept. It does paint a clearer picture and should change behaviors, a little bit of leadership knowing that there are people that they want to be part of the club for a while.

There are people that will attend every conference, but their goal isn’t to make money. They enjoy it. Maybe that’s where they feel the best. Maybe the spouse doesn’t listen to them. The coworkers don’t listen to them, but they have friends over here, and who’s to say that’s wrong? Who’s to say, “How dare you to smile if you’re not at a certain rank?” That doesn’t make any sense.

I learned that 80/15/5 from Larry. In meditating and thinking about that concept, I’m like, “If that were true, which I believe it is, then how would I change these things over here?” It’s a powerful concept that relieves stress. One of the reasons that leaders will burn out and sabotage is that they put this guilt on themselves, that everyone in their team has to make money which will never happen no matter who you are.

One of the reasons that leaders will burn out and sabotage is they put this mom guilt on them, that everyone in their team has to make money, which will never happen no matter who you are.

If you saddle yourself with all this baggage of, “There are people not making money in here,” you don’t even know if that’s their goal, but you’ve saddled yourself with that. You’ll start to say, “Am I a good leader? Most people aren’t making money.” They could be as happy as can be unless you tell them not to be. Some leaders would be like, “I’m so sorry you’re not making money.” They’re like, “I’m supposed to be sad.” They were the happiest it could be until you informed them that they shouldn’t be.

At what place is it one-on-one when you have that five percenter that person identifies themselves, they’re emotionally hungry, starving to get to the next level, and struggling? Is that where more of the accountability comes in, or does that ever come in? How do you manage that?

Think about the church. If you’re at church, you’re not seated according to how much you put in the collection plate. They’re not like, “You come on up. You back there, buddy.” There’s one sermon, and whoever gives, they give. During that sermon, they may say, “By the way, we got night classes. By the way, we’re doing this over here.” They may tell you all the different options and their options. They’ll use the word if. The word if is very powerful. When you don’t use the word if, you’re assuming too much. I know because I made this mistake, so I would come on a team call and be like, “If you’re not prospecting ten people a day, what’s wrong with you?”

My leaders would be like, “That was fire.” People would quit. I’d be like, “Where did Tracy go? She was just here.” Tracy won’t tell you that she feels like a disappointment. She’ll sneak away and disappear. Instead, you use the word if and you say, “If you’re on here and you love the team group and building a business isn’t the deal for you, totally cool. We appreciate you. This next part is for those of you who are serious about building a business, and if that’s you, pay attention. If it’s not, don’t worry about it.” That says it’s okay. It’s okay for you to be here and sit at the table. If you’re not home at the mouth, psychopath, goal setter. That allows people like, “Maybe I’ll listen in.” They may listen in and may catch a spark, but I’m not addicted to that, and the leaders shouldn’t be addicted to that.

I can’t help but think there was an early in my career when I had this breakfast meeting, and there were 60 people. It was personal growth and mindset. We’d tell success stories, and then I read some accountability books. I started having them fill out the sheet every morning. I held them accountable positively. We went around the room, and literally, we’d had this thing going. It’s a half-hour breakfast meeting for a year and a half. It was smoking. It was so incredible.

Within a month, I had it down to fifteen people. I was so slow. I didn’t understand because my energy was still good. I was still positive, but the very act of saying, “Bill, how many you got this week?” “It’s zero.” I should have realized it earlier, but it’s exactly what you’re saying. Unfortunately, I realized it, but it did take me a month and a half.

You can do all of those things. I’m not saying to not coach people and be tough on them but let them raise their hands. We always overestimate the longevity of someone’s hunger. Don’t do that. If you want to run a 7-day challenge, run a 7-day challenge. If you want to run a 90-day, there are going to be some that have that tenacity. Most people don’t.

Most of us overestimate the tenacity and longevity of someone’s desire.

It has not even changed a little bit more recently, like the time spans have become shorter in the last decade.

I don’t know that I tried to run enough long-term things a decade ago to fully be able to say that. We’ll do fourteen-day challenges, and we charge them money for it. They got to pay for it. On day five, I’m yelling at them. I’m like, “We’re half of you all.” They paid for it. Most of us overestimate the tenacity and the longevity of someone’s desire. There’s nothing wrong with running 10, 7-day challenges, letting people hop in and stay focused for seven days if they want to join the next one. There’s nothing wrong with that, but when you run a 90-day, a lot of times people walk away with the, “I didn’t finish that either.”

It’s a constant diminishing of their self-worth and their self-confidence. I’m talking about the middle of the pack. I’m talking about the majority. I’m not talking about the animals. I’m an animal. You’re an animal. You do the work. You’re consistent. You’re disciplined. I’m not worried about us. We’ll handle business. I’m worried about all those other people that could have been successful, have been happy in our teams, and have made an extra $300,000 or $500,000 a month. There are a lot of them. That would make a massive difference in everyone’s checks and volume.

Tell everybody what you’re doing at Rank Makers University and Rank Maker’s Accelerator. You’ve got some tools that are incredible. For that person who is trying to figure it out to move up at the level, or maybe they’re already a superstar, and they want to plug into some advanced teaching, talk about Rank Makers University and what you’re doing there.

We’ve been running our group since July 2017. We started tracking progress back in early 2018. We’ve had this discussion of how we’ve tracked, and people had to manually update it. If they ranked advanced, they had to approve it because we would send them a gift. Every month, we send gifts out. From the tracking we’ve done, we’ve helped network markers bring over 300,000 new customers, 71,000 new reps, and around 14,000 rank advances.

We give you an action step. We give you training. At Rank Makers University, we have a large library, but that’s not the focus. There’s an incredible library. Everything from TikTok, Instagram, social media, closing, and follow-up. You name it, it’s in there. I promise you. What’s cool is when you have a lot of data is our access tool. We have a survey tool that you fill out and use and tell where you are struggling. It will make it nice and easy. It will point you to your best resource.

I’ve seen that. It’s almost like a self-evaluation tool where you take it, and you can say, “I know myself pretty well. I don’t even need a third party to psychoanalyze me. This is where I’m weak. I could use some help.” That’s pretty cool.

That could be leadership. It could be the scripts. It could be prospecting. We partnered up with you guys, and we have our Rank Maker Accelerator, which is our version of Rapid Funnel. People love it. We have a guy you and I were talking about. He generated hundreds and hundreds of leads through the survey tool. You get that. That is included in the Rank Makers University membership.

I got to see those numbers. A lot of people are looking for a side hustle. They’re in the gig economy. We live in it. There was a gig economy side hustle survey that was created. This fellow using your platform posted it one time on social and generated 300 leads. He probably had his own following, and maybe he was active on social.

He’s a nice guy. I like him, but he’s not a big influencer. That’s important to share.

In 300, he generated a name, a phone number, an email address, and 300 push notifications, which you go, “That’s a lot of notifications to my phone.” If every one of those were a new lead that filled out a survey to say, “This is where I am psychologically around the gig economy, and I’m willing to have you follow up with me,” I imagine every time that phone dinged, he was pretty excited.

He’s over the moon.

I did hear him on the call, and he was pretty darn excited. That’s cool. Ray, closing up here, talk to me about this. I’m interviewing a lot of people. We work with a lot of companies, and we’re seeing almost this battle with social media. It’s interesting to me to observe the digital influencer that has almost become a network marketing guru. People are following, and they can make money. They can make it work, not necessarily duplicate it.

Some of these people tend to jump from company to company because there is no stable culture in the organization. It tends to be shallow. How do you coach and teach balance? You’ve got to use social. You have to use the tools, but at the same time, there’s a danger in that. You may look at it differently. I’m not sure. How do you find that balance?

Patrick Shaw | Building Culture

It’s interesting because no one even considers building any business without doing social media nowadays. I remember when the quarantine happened. I had companies reaching out to me that I had never heard from. That first week I did 75 Zooms for all these different companies and countries because they were scrambling trying to learn social media. They had only taught in-person, in-home, and all of that stuff, which is nothing wrong with that.

I can’t get over that number. That’s a crazy number.

Singapore, Malaysia, Africa, I was all these different time zones, and I’m like, “People need this. I’m going to roll up my sleeves and do it.” As far as what influence does to someone, that’s going to depend on the person. I know a lot of people that have built influence on social media are great. They’ve been with their companies for years, and they love it. A lot of it has to do with how does the company treat them? Some people may not like this take. In the past, even several years ago, you could be very strict that your people had to do this thing. “Don’t you write a book? Don’t you do this? Don’t you do that?”

“Don’t join another company.”

Some of this I understand. Joining another company, I’m certainly not a big fan of someone who tried to build multiple companies at the same time. It used to be where it was a lot about control. These influencers, if you start building your following, you’re getting crazy offers. Think about it like this. You’re a network marketing company. Would you allow Brian Tracy to join your team? You would.

Does Brian Tracy sell other things? Yes, he does. It’s an interesting paradigm of, “It’s okay if they’re already selling stuff, but if they come in here and gain influence, they’d better not sell anything.” It’s a tough scenario. I get it. We want to say, “I don’t want them distracted.” They’re an entrepreneur. They’re a sole entrepreneur. You have to have some balance there.

I remember the last company I was a part of when I came in, I had our coaching and training company, and it was agreed on that I wasn’t going to be a trainer for the company, so I wasn’t. I’m like, “If you all are worried about people finding me through you guys and buying stuff, then I had to be okay with that.” Would any other company have allowed me to be a trainer? Yes, they all would have.

At that time in my life, I was okay. I didn’t want to travel that much, and that was okay. That way of thinking is tough nowadays. That doesn’t mean kissing their butt because I see some companies go the other way, and they create things that are only for the influencers. I’d be careful with that way of thinking, too, because I wouldn’t want to punish anyone. Whoever’s doing the work, let’s not punish them. More flexibility and having the ability to make decent money from retailing your product are important too. That wasn’t on the radar several years ago.

You don’t want to punish anyone who’s doing the work.

How do you balance this? There’s a pattern sometimes with companies that maybe aren’t in the know, and that is Joe comes along. He’s great at social media. He takes a retail product. He’s got a good rank in the company. He creates a bunch of digital tools. He sells a lot of products. He may even be doing pay click. The company grabs Joe. They put him on stage, and then they find out what Joe is doing. They terminate Joe or put Joe’s check on hold. They go, “We could do this directly.”

Some companies even go so far as to sell, “We’re going to start selling the product direct,” which is a violation of the trust of the entire organization. Is there a blueprint? There are a lot of nuances in this, but is there generally a, “You can do these things, but you can’t do these. If a person quietly wants to go away and join another company, as long as he doesn’t talk to anybody, we’re not going to track him down if he does something different.” Where’s the gray area? Where is the hard stop, no? That’s a tough one to be coming to close here. What do you do with that if you’re a company now?

I can look at what companies are thriving and doing well. I’m not aware of any companies that are retaining their leaders well and crushing sales that are controlling. It doesn’t seem that way. I’m not seeing everyone’s back office, but it seems like when people are more open, I agree with that statement of, “If someone joins another company, doesn’t cross recruit, doesn’t do all that stuff, and then leaves them alone.” They may come back, and a lot of times, they will unless you smack them. If you smack them, you can give them a reason to prove you wrong, and now they’re on a mission to get everybody.

Companies that get mad at a leader or something for leaving and blast their entire database with the person’s name is about the worst thing you can do because then everyone’s reaching out to him, “What’s going on? What’s happening? Why’d you leave?” That’s a green light for them to grow their business. If you’re having a lot of people complain that you are buying certain tools from somebody, and you want to control it, it’s tough.

We’re in a world where people are looking for flexibility. They’re not so tangled in. Before social media, it was pretty straightforward. Even in that, you would have mortgage brokers, realtors, and insurance guys that had their business and might talk to some other members. It wasn’t that big of a deal. Now it’s influencer deals, or they’re selling gummies or something like that. The rule is that the more controlling you’re looking to be in nowadays environment, it’s going to bite you.

The more controlling you’re looking to be in today’s environment, the more it will bite you.

Good advice for leaders and organizations. I always enjoy spending time with you. You’re having such a big impact. Any closing thoughts for those leaders or enterprises out there building and the market that we’re in as we move forward?

One of the things if you look at the companies that I notice that are doing well, the two common things that I see are 1) They’re not so controlling, and 2) There is a way for the average ordinary person to make an actual income retailing the product. Is there enough profit margin in selling the product? There are more and more people doing that. I don’t think that was the case years ago.

It’s more natural for most people to sell a product. There are way more consumers than there are consumer entrepreneurs. Some people in network marketing don’t even know it’s network marketing because they’re just selling a product. They don’t even understand the recruiting aspect. That was a very small percentage of people years ago.

Looking at your product, can someone make a decent income by retailing the product? That should be addressed. If that’s a no, there’s, “No way.” There are complaints out there. We are getting $0.20 for selling a $30 bottle of thing. You aren’t going to make money there. More people are looking for that flexibility of, “If I sell a couple of things, am I getting my product for free? If I sell a couple of things, am I making $100 a month or something like that?” Those are two big factors. What’s cool is with what you guys do, helps people track their numbers. It helps them with automation and with a lot of good tools. More and more people need to use those things if they’re serious about building their businesses.

We’re excited about it. Ray, who’s your target audience? Who are you working with and focused on helping the most? How do they reach you if they want more information on what Ray Higdon and the team are doing?

I appreciate that. In the network marketing space, we got hired for three keynotes. I do a lot of keynote speeches at different companies. I personally work with a lot of different leaders. We have our Rank Makers University for anyone that is serious about building a business. People don’t join our staff that is looking to make $100 a month. They’re looking to make more than that, and that’s why they would spend money and invest in themselves.

Overall, I help performance-based teams overcome their roadblocks to dominate. We get in there and not just teach them the tactics, the daily routine, and the social media strategies but get in there and help them understand why they aren’t reaching that next level. A lot of times, there are some interesting stories that we’ve helped leaders with why they’re not doing the work.

Maybe they saw their parents make a bunch of money and lose it. Maybe they have a bunch of siblings, and they learned as a kid that getting recognition caused others harm. There’s a lot of psychological stuff there that prevents people from reaching their potential. We get into that deeper stuff. The tactics maybe they’re not advanced. They’re complex but, “Why won’t you do the tactics?” is a powerful question.

It’s figuring out the story they’re telling themselves and why they are buying it. RayHigdon.com, is that the best way for you to reach out and find out more?

Yes. RayHigdon.com works. We’re on all the social media. We do a lot of free videos. We love what we do and love working with you, guys.

We’re excited to work with you too. It is great to have you on the show, and I know we’ll do it again. Thanks, everybody, for reading.

Thanks for having me.

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About Ray Higdon

Ray Higdon | Building Culture

Ray Higdon is the bestselling author of Time, Money, Freedom and a highly respected expert who works with high achievers to help them master their emotions and reach their full potential in business and in life. Specifically, in the last 5 years he’s helped his clients generate over 300,000 new customers. His podcast, Home Business Profits, has had over 9 million downloads and gets about 160k downloads every month. His company, Higdon Group, has been recognized as an Inc 5000 company, and hosts annual events with as many as 2,000 people live and nearly 7,000 registered online.

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